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 Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]

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T@l Blaiser
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PostSubject: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:42 pm

Hello PV.

Napag isipan ko na huwag muna bumili ng violin, itatabi ko na lang muna ung mga funds ko... gusto ko kasi isa o dalawang beses na lang bibili[Aggressive at soft] at iyun na ang aking pag aaralan... alam naman natin na hinde ang violin ang umaadjust sa atin, kumbaga ung kabaliktaran.

So, hinde ako naghahanap ng antique, at ayaw ko rin ng 2nd hand, kaya napag isipan ko na mag pagawa na lang, Kung kinaya ko gumastos ng 100k sa guitara bakit hinde sa violin? Walang yabang, just stressing the point that I am DEAD SERIOUS to this matter. mas mahal ko ang music kesa wheels... beside hinde naman ako marunong mag drive.

kaso ano ba ang rating ng Philippine violin? Quality & Durability? tinatangkilik lang ba natin ito dahil sa "Patriotism"? ano ang laban ng ating Violin sa mga foreign luthiers? bakit hinde ko gaano marinig ito sa mga bibig ng ibang lahi, at kung meron man hinde pa maganda!? sino ba ang award winning luthier natin dito? No name dropping, just kindly MP if you please. Also, napansin ko sa PV showroom na wala yata meron dito nag mamay ari ng Philippine made violin. Hinde ako naniniwala dahil masyadong mahal... dahil kung totoo na worth it ito, meron bibili. "Worth it" nga ba?

And lets face the fact that none of us are super humans. wala sa atin ang nakaka alam kung ano ang puwedeng mangyari bukas, ganun din sa luthier IMO kahit ginawa na niya lahat ng tama at magandang paraan, hinde pa rin niya masasabi kung ano ang kalalabasan ng violin. Kung hinde ako nasiyahan sa resulta ng violin, kailangan ko pa ba magbayad ulit para ayusin ito? may ilan na ako naka usap na mga foreigner tungkol sa bagay na ganito, na nagbayad sila ng ganitong presyo pero ang naging worth ng kanilang instrumento ay 1/4 ng binayad nila? kumbaga pumalpak! at sinisingil pa sila ulit para ayusin.

Ito ay sugal, alam ko kaya ko pinag-iisipan ng mabuti, patriot ako "Proud Pinoy!" kaya gusto ko ng Philippine made!

So PV what is your experience with Philippine hand made Violin regarding Quality & Durability?
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:48 pm

Talblaiser,

I haven't tried Philippine made violins. Ewan ko lang kung yung ibang brand na tinitinda sa mga music shops ay Philippine made. Pero personally, I think mas magaganda pa rin sa ibang bansa (sadly) just because the instrument itself is not that popular here. In those countries, the art of creating this instrument has been passed on for centuries, so imagine the time and effort already spent to improve it!
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:28 pm

@ jollyclay: Thank you!

Aray! ganyan din ang sinabi sa akin ng kapwa ko pinoy tungkol sa guitara noon, kaya nauwi ako sa Spain... baka ikaw iyun ah!? at lalo naging totoo ng marinig at makita ko ung mga nire-repair na handmade guitar natin, dahil bumaluktot na ung leeg. may kumalas ung sa loob... wala gaano siguro aamin na nagkamali sa pag bili, lalo na sa laki ng binayad nila sa kanilang guitara, atsaka wala pa ako naging yamaha na guitar na nasira dahil sa madahas na paggamit, kahit chipipay ito ^^;

He he he baka sa Italy ako ngayon mauwi eh? hinde siguro, marami na nagsasabi na mabangis na rin ang Tsina sa pag gawa ng violin.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:48 pm

hi TalBlaiser! :) this is a good question/topic IMO. parang makakasulat ako ng full-page article para i-discuss ko POV ko! ahaha

foreign luthiers will always have the upper hand because they have the means and cultural background for these instruments. not to mention some foreigners are really snobs. :D i agree with clay. dun kasi nanggaling, may time to develop and "perfect" the craft as it is passed on from teacher to apprentice. wala yatang ganoong culture dito, sadly. in a third-world country, we make do with what we have. wala na din yatang development na nangyayari (i can only assume). we just make copies.

as for buying one by our local luthiers, i actually intend to purchase one. pero pera pa din ang problema ko. di pa naman ako nananalo ng lotto and so far, maliit pa din sweldo ko sa work. :D in my head lang kasi, 50 years from now, i can say na i own a violin crafted by a Filipino craftsman. medyo mas sentimental lang ako. (50% senti, 50% mental) i had one violin restored though. :)

before:


after:


though i am not COMPLETELY satisfied, i know our luthier did his best considering the condition of the violin. i would guess others would just give up with the violin in the old state and say that the restoration isn't worth it or charged me a hefty sum. he gave me a reasonable price for the restoration and masaya naman ako doon. hindi holdap. :) in that aspect, natutuwa ako na may luthier tayo dito.

the one reason i see bakit halos galing ibang bansa yung violins ng mga nasa PV is because they can choose what to buy. with a luthier, you have one made. you have to wait. with the ones on ebay, you can choose whatever violin you like because gawa na sila. may showroom na sila agad, pipili ka na lang. you can ask for pics of the details and reject whatever you don't like.

whew! parang ang sarap pag-usapan nito sa round table! haha! sorry, this is just a POV of an unlearned amateur violinist. opinion lang naman po.. hehe :)
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:03 pm

Hi TalBlaiser and all,

Unfortunately, aside from Amador Tamayo and Angel Gabute, I have not heard of any other Fulltime Filipino luthiers. When I was in college, there was one maker, Mang Diding, (i forget his last name, Fernando yata or something), but he died. One of the violinists in the school band I was in had a violin that he made, but it was not quite good, and she admitted that when that particular maker made that violin, he was already sick/infirm (I think he had a stroke or something), kaya di masyadong pulido yung gawa ng violin... The finish was quite crude, to be honest...

And sadly, kahit gusto kong tangkilikin ang atin (tama ba?), the prices that their (that is, Amador Tamayo and Mang Angel) respective violins are being sold is just too much for me to justify, as opposed to say buying a Suzuki or a Hofner, or even a Chinese Handmade. Presyo pa lang, pwede ka bumili ng dalawa o tatlong Chinese Handmade for the price of an Amador Tamayo...

Guitarwise, as far as electric solidbody guitars are concerned, we have a few very talented makers/luthiers here. I don't know if a lot of people have heard of them, but for a budding Filipino guitarist, the names Jon Dela Cruz and Ari Hipolito will ring a bell. Jon Dela Cruz is the one I go to for my guitar needs. I have a Stratocaster and a Telecaster that he made, and the tonewoods, not to mention the attention to detail that he has is staggering... Jon does a lot of custom work, and he imports tonewoods especially for people who want to have a guitar made from scratch. Ari Hipolito is also good, a lot of our local musicians go to him for set up and for custom instruments as well. Both are also good restorers.

Please take note that the services of these two (there are others of course) do not come cheap, but compared to buying a Philippine-made violin, I would say mas affordable pa bumili ng super custom na guitar dito, with all the tone woods or figured woods available, and you will really get your money's worth. I have seen a few good examples of Amador Tamayo's violins. Magaganda, to be honest (drool inducing), but pricey talaga hehe, way way out of my range...

I just wish there will come a day when I will be able to go to a luthier here and have a violin made for say P15,000.00 to 20,000.00, the usual prices for a Chinese handmade. Then mangongolekta talaga ako ng Philippine Made

Cube



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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:07 pm

Kung makokontact lang natin si Sir Coke Bolipata about his experience with violins..

Calling Doc Eric..

Ano po masasabi niyo dito??
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:43 pm

I agree !!! ... matagal nang walang malalim at interesting topic sa PV for months !!!

My views ...

Another advantage of European Luthiers is the Access to museums and private collectors and loaned instruments.

For copies and inspiration they have access to the actual instruments themselves for measurements etc.

Setting Good Tone aside, even Chinese made instruments especially those sold on Ebay are questionable in authenticity. Some stores flaunt "Guarneri Copy" when in fact F Holes palang obvious nang hindi Guarneri Copy. These stores profit from said "copies", famous names and the ignorance of first time buyers. What say you Jeje ??? ^_^
I also say this because i own a chinese hand crafted violin said to have been patterned after Klotz. Yet there are still issues since i know how a Klotz look like and it is very similar to a Stainer.... supra wide F Holes especially the Treble F Hole... as in you can see daylight through it... very plump bodies na halos mukha nang isang buong fat lump of a Tasty bread. Pero mine is the opposite.... it's more of a hybrid of several patterns. They did their best to copy, i even sent them high resolution pics that i have collected since 2004 from various websites of museums, and other luthiers specializing in baroque instruments. But they still do not have access to the actual physical instruments themselves... Just ideas, descriptions, figures, numbers and pictures. They can only make a 'scale model' out of all these. ;-) But i don't mind since hindi naman ako after sa maker.... as long as it's a Baroque Violin. ^_^

Very few Luthiers even European ones are brave enough to dare deviate, refuse or even dislike the Stradivari and Guarneri Patterns. I know of one such person who is a Luthier, a Bow maker and a Baroque Violinist. He admits naman that early on his violin making career he used the patterns of Strads pero syempre who didn't ... but later on he abandoned the "Popular" patterns.... ;-)

The advantage of his work is that he being a violinist knows if the violin he's made is up to standard and will just do minor tweakings for specific clients who are also fellow string players. His inspirations he declares are the antique violins of his colleagues that are usually not in the pattern of Stradivari or Guarneri. And his instruments are relatively affordable. ^_^

....syempre relatively kasi hindi naman student violins yun, at hindi ko rin afford so i now reject the thought of owning one of his instruments.


Last edited by baroqueviolin on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:18 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:48 pm

To add, what the Filipinos patronize are the rock, pop, metal, modern-genre kind of music, which in most cases, doesn't require a violin. There's very little market as compared to those buying guitars, drums etc. Creating violins means business! So if there's little market to serve, it doesn't look very enticing diba? Lalo na if the materials are expensive.

We need a Filipino who will create a very big impact on music, violin in particular, to inspire his countrymen to contribute in this field and that is to create violins for the Filipino people which, hopefully, will last for a very long time. Look at Manny Pacquiao, boxing has never been at its peak in the Philippines! Kaya dumadami ang gusto magboxing ngayon eh, hehe. I've noticed there are a lot of Korean kids studying violin, napaisip ako baka dahil nainspire ni Sarah Chang. Nung Christmas concert namin parang kalahati ata nun mga koreans, haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:52 pm

JUST GO TO Mang Angel and test out his violins <3 Or tapos biyahe din papunta kay Mang Amador hehehe. Kung natipuhan pagawa na.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:00 pm

@jollyclay: I think we do have a lot of professional violinists who are capable of inspiring the masses to learn the violin or appreciate its beauty. We have Mr. Kabayao who gives recital-lectures around the Philippines to educate the people about classical music. One problem we have is that the media should give more focus sa classical music. Think of this: Why not invite a violinist to play a special number sa may Eat Bulaga instead yung mga pop stars na nag lilipsynch sometimes?

Just a thought. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:39 pm

before 2006 may Classical Music program pa yung Arirang TV sa Cable.... tatatlo lang yung channels na tadtad ng Concerts sa cable TV..... BS2 Japanese Channel, Arirang TV, DWTV German Channel (occasionally lalo na pag Christmas time).... ngayon DWTV nalang.... hindi pa lagi may concerts.

Di siguru dadalasan ng mga Noon Time Shows yun... wala namang reason para maginvite eh ... unless for promotional purposes siguru... mga visiting artists... tapos panget pa ng mic na gagamitin ..... o_O

I wish sa schools. ♥ ♥ ♥
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:54 pm

i miss teaching sa school.... the only thing i miss is the single day i devout out of the 5 months to play the Violin in class.... to introduce them to Erudite Music... yun ang kulang sa univeristy namen eh.

I succeeded naman ... there are around 3 students who are studying the violin .... ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:21 pm

baroqueviolin wrote:
...

Another advantage of European Luthiers is the Access to museums and private collectors and loaned instruments.

For copies and inspiration they have access to the actual instruments themselves for measurements etc.

...

true! mukhang iisa lang yung padron meron dito. and kung meron mang collectors with instruments, hindi pwedeng hawakan. "baka masira" (we know this mentality all too well diba?)
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:36 pm

@baroqueviolin: True! Na notice ko yung pag decline ng mga tv channels na may classical programs. I remember how I hunger so much for these programs noong wala pa kaming internet sa bahay... but these days we have the internet: youtube, etc and with these we are better equipped to expose the masses to violin music.

I think it will be better if we stir the hunger/demand for violins then we can proceed with supplying the violins. I have good faith sa ating Filipino luthiers...what is kulang lang is the demand from the people.

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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:02 am

You know what a nice thing to do ??? ... just a thought. ^_^

That apprentices under Mr. Amador Tamayo and Mr. Angel Gabute and other Luthiers create the affordable student-hand crafted violins for the consumption of advancing and intermediate violin students....


I know for a fact that Stradivari and other Luthiers even today as we speak, mga apprentices na supervised ang pinapagawa nila sa mga repairs and minor jobs like setting up the violins, bridge cutting etc....

Another point is hindi naman dapat tinatago ng todo ang secrets it has to be in some way passed on ... unless umiral ang "self-ishness" ... ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:39 am

In fairness naman sa mga Filipino Luthiers natin like Mr. Amador Tamayo and Mr. Angel Gabute yung quality ng craftmanship nila ay pumapantay or even lagpas pa sa foreign luthiers kasi nga si Mr. Tamayo ay nag aral at nag train ng violin making sa Germany and Mr. Gabute ay nag train under Mr. Tamayo for 17 years i think. Pagkakaalam ko nga ang training ni Mr. tamayo is "MARKNEUKIRCHEN" tradition of violin making pa and pati Italian violin making na din. So hindi ako sang ayon sa nagsasabi na mas magagaling ang craftmanship ng mga foreigner sa mga local luthiers natin. Ang disadvantage lang nila ay wala tayong mga wood dito like spruce at maple tree para sa violin kaya they end up importing this toned woods. Kaya siguro medyo mahal ang price nila.

Kung price naman paguusapan talaga naman sulit yung babayad mo kasi nga student violin pa lang ni Mang Amador worth 50K pesos 5 years ago ay katumbas na ng advanced or even pro violin na binebenta ng mga chinese stores sa ebay worth 20K pesos or even more. Narinig ko na ang mga violin ni Mang Amador and masasabi ko ay talagang quality talaga pati ang sound at pagkaka set up ay maganda talaga.

Contrary sa mga nagsasabi na walang tumatangkilik sa violin ni Mang Amador at Mang Angel, I strongly disagree with that kasi ang mga professional musician natin ay ginagamit ang violin nila like Ms. Gina Medina. And matagal talaga mag pagawa ng violin kay Mang Amador kasi nga madami sya orders from our professional violinist hindi lang natin alam. So tayong mga hindi PRO ay nauuwi na bumili na lang sa ibang bansa kasi nga ready made na pero we still go to Mr. Tamayo or Mr. Gabute para i set up nila yung nabili natin na "chinese violin" or European violn" so yung nagsasabi na mababa ang quality ng craftmanship ng local luthiers natin eh bakit pa pinapa set up nila yung mga European violin nila dito satin?? Saka wala pako ata nakilala na may ari ng foreign violin dito satin na hindi nagpa set up kina Mang Amador....yun lang for now....peace!


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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:47 am

Gusto ko lang banggitin na sabi ng mga German luthiers sa violin ni Mang Amador "Masyado daw perpekto yung craftmanship kaya di nila ma consider i import sa kanila. Gusto kasi nila yung medyo rugged ata ang pagkakagawa eh hehehe
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:08 am

Thanks Doc,

At first nung mabasa ko ang Thread na ito, I thought there's something missing.. Somehow unbalanced.. I really wanted to comment further but i don't have something complete and substantial thing to say.. That is why I just typed "if only we can get Sir Coke Bolipata's opinion about Violins made by our local Luthier and His experiences"..

Now that we have already known the sides of the Luthiers Thru Doc Eric (Coz he's a friend of both luthiers) we can now weigh the factors and conclude accordingly with the given sides..

I can only say, This Topic is one of the healthiest thread and most informative to date.
This is not a conclusion yet but merely my own point of view..

Further comments are still welcome..
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:08 am

Kung hindi maganda ang mga gawa ng Local Luthiers natin bakit pa maghihintay ng almost 1 year ang mga professional violinist natin na magpagawa ng mga violin nila.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:13 am

@Cute Worm: correction hindi naman nila ko friend I'm just one of their customers hehehe...:)
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:21 am

bursky wrote:


as for buying one by our local luthiers, i actually intend to purchase one. pero pera pa din ang problema ko. di pa naman ako nananalo ng lotto and so far, maliit pa din sweldo ko sa work. :D in my head lang kasi, 50 years from now, i can say na i own a violin crafted by a Filipino craftsman. medyo mas sentimental lang ako. (50% senti, 50% mental) i had one violin restored though. :)




@Bursky
Yan Rest Assured na pala kung may 50k ka na Good Quality ang magiging violin mo pag kay Mang Amador ka magpagawa.. Also, you only not own a Philippine made violin but also a lifetime of Bragging Right to be proud of your instrument! hehehe


@DoC eric

Kinonsider ko lang na a satisfied customer is already a friend of the luthier... hehehe peace!
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:29 am

@Doc,
Nabasa nyo na yung obviously bitter na nagsulat ng blog ata yun sa internet about the violins of Mr. Tamayo... dalawang magkaibang links yun eh pero same content ... nakakagulat kasi masyadong public yung blog nya na nangigitata sa negativity.... ewan ko kung ano problem nya di naman sya clear sa issues nya... o_O


@cube
maraming luthiers sa Pilipinas... archipelagic country...daming islands... maraming mapagtataguan...

may Luthier sa Marinduque... napuntahan na ng pinsan ko na taga Bicol... 80 ++ years old na sya... twilight years na ... o_O
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:19 am

I don't know if this is a good idea but is it time for the Philippines to open a luthier school? Like some sort of pilot program to see whether it would flourish of not?

Mag eenroll talaga ako!



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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:45 am

@baroqueviolin,

I've read that comment already and well, everyone has his own opinion. Sabi nga, you cannot please everybody. I'm sure there are negative comments too, for the other famous luthiers.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:49 am

@jantiger,

I don't want to generalize, pero personally, I think luthiers prize their art of violin making very much that they don't want to pass it on to just anybody. Kelangan someone they really trust and they really believe has talent. Hindi siya parang course lang na everybody can enroll. :\
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:03 am

agree aq kay kuya doc. .hehe. .ako? wala. .nagbabasabasa lang. .
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:31 am

@ doceric: Maraming salamat po, very informative! Okay to narrow it down to my concern po.

First ung Durability:

- Gaano na po katagal gumagawa si Mr. Amador Tamayo? o SI Mr. Angel Gabute? May violin na po ba silang tumagal ng more than 40 years at still in use?

- Ano ang madalas na issues/problema ng mga Tamayo/Gabute violins pag ito ay pinaparepair? like bumaluktot na ba ung leeg, kumalas ba ung mga linings, blocks etc... sa loob? may buzzling sound and so forth.

2nd ung Quality:

Appearance: hinde importante sa akin ito :D

Sounds: doceric, let me explain my place as an enthusiast. Kahit kelan hinde ko binase ang sound ng isang instrument sa kamay ng professionals. for the reason na bigyan mo sila ng well constructed factory made, mapapatunog nila itong parang professional handcrafted.

However, pinapakinggan ko ang instrumento sa kamay ng amateur, kaya ba e-compensate ng instrument ung pagkukulang ng player? doon ko bine base ang quality ng sounds ng instrument.
IMO tinatangkilik ng mga Pro ang Tamayo violins dahil sa prestige & patriotism, part na ng history natin si Mr. Tamayo, puwede ba natin sabihin na siya ang unang filipino master luthier? Narrowed opinion ko ito, pero Never ko sinasabi na pangit ang gawa niya, dahil hinde siya papansinin kung ganun nga.

Maliban sa magpagawa, ano ang waiting list ni Mr.Tamayo or meron na siyang nakahanda for selling? Ano ang price range ng kanyang Master Violin? Aba eh kung may laban pala ang gawa ni Mr. Tamayo bakit pa ako lalayo at mas Gusto ko na ang instrumento ko ay gawa ng kapwa ko Pinoy.

Ako ay "PackRat" at intend ko talaga ipasa ang mga instruments ko sa magigiging anak ko. ^^;

Babasahin ko pa ung mga nakaraan na post, sorry kung nalaktawan.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:08 am

@ bursky: Uy thank you for sharing! wow, na jigsaw na violin, paano nasira iyan?

@ cube.root.sam: Oo nagkita na kami ni Mr. Hipolito, kaso hinde ako nakikinig sa mga pinag sasabi niya, ewan ko kung anak nya ung dalagita, pero doon nahulog ung aking pansin habang nagpapagawa ung mga friends ko ng kanilang guitar he he he. daming iba't ibang klaseng guitara ka makikita doon. magaling si Mr. Hipolito mahal nga talaga pero sulit, kung hinde lang nga pakekelaman ng mga trabahador niya ung mga guitara.

KundarmaH wrote:
JUST GO TO Mang Angel and test out his violins <3 Or tapos biyahe din papunta kay Mang Amador hehehe. Kung natipuhan pagawa na.

Admin Kamusta na kayo! Oo nga eh, gusto ko talaga pumunta doon kaso wala pa yata pupunta kay mang angel, takot ako maligaw doon at hinde ko kabisado ung lugar ^^; ung SM fairview lang ang alam ko, at isang beses lang yata ako na punta doon ^^;


@ baroqueviolin: Aray ako iyun, binigyan ako ng lesson i Cute worm tungkol sa F holes ng Guarneri he he he. Si Joseph Curtin ba ung tinutukoy mo? siya ung nakita ko na parang bumabalik sa lumang klase ng violin?
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:29 am

@Tal,

Durability wise,
In a master violin model, It is understood that the luthier/maker spends time and effort to "meticulously choose" every part of the instrument he will build. Besides, For a serious enthusiast willing to spend that sum of money (around 50k for pro level and around 100k or more for master level) Then I would consider that he is also dead serious about taking care of his instrument. So we can Just drop down the issue of warping neck or loose part.. In a way, Proven na sa history na isa sa mga long lasting instrument ang violin through proper care and maintenance.. Yung Buzzling sound naman siguro, hindi na problema yun dahil malalaman naman ng mga professional Players ang mga issues na yun upon testing..

So Far Hindi pa tested ng mga 40 years or more ang mga Tamayo violins dahil hindi pa naman siya ganun katagal nang gumagawa..

Sa waiting list naman, pwede siguro mag leave ng message sa facebook ni Sir Amador.



Sound wise,
I understand your position on this. Base sa pagkakasulat mo, napaka lalim ng incluence m at knowledge mo sa guitar. Kahit pano kasi, matagal ang experience ko sa guitar at mga natutunan along the way.

If we compare how we play the guitar and violin, It is very obvious that the sound we play on the violin shows the level of our ability to play the instrument. May ganung factor din sa guitar at kahit pano kaya natin i-distinguish yun sa mga napapanood nating guitarist.. But when it comes to violin playing, mas lumalabas talaga ang character ng bawat player.. Kaya mahirap sabihin na kaya i-compensate ng master level violin ang kakulangan ng player, when in fact, the player is the biggest factor in producing music through the violin..


In my personal opinion, These master level or customized violins are especially made to accept abuse in playing because they will be used by professional players through out their career. Fortunately, Violins tend to sound better through constant playing and is not a good idea to leave it stagnant or displayed only inside the closet.


Last edited by Cute Worm on Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:33 am

TalBlaiser wrote:
However, pinapakinggan ko ang instrumento sa kamay ng amateur, kaya ba e-compensate ng instrument ung pagkukulang ng player? doon ko bine base ang quality ng sounds ng instrument.

To an extent, yes. May pagkakaiba din talaga kung fine instrument ang ginamit. Nung nag-start ako mag-aral Parrot ang gamit ko, tapos nakatanggap ako ng isang Hofner, at may pagkakaiba talaga ang tunog.

However, malaki pa rin ang impluwensiya ng skill ng humawak ng instrumento.

I would really want to own a Tamayo violin. Or at least have my Hofner serviced. But I cannot afford it. =/
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:33 am

EXPOUND ko pa ung sound quality:

Yehudi Menuhin about his Stradivarius:
”A good instrument wants to be conquered; it does not present itself unguarded.
It expresses painfully every mistake and rewards the touch of a true master gracefully.”


May nag sabi rin sa akin na ang strad daw ay hinde kagaya ng iniisip namin na superior sa lahat, meron lang itong "placebo effect" dahil ito ay antique, gawa ni Stradivari, ginamit na ng ilang sikat na musicians.

In short: hinde yata nito kaya e-compensate ang pagkukulang ng player, kagaya ng sabi ni Menuhin. mukhang makikipag wrestling ka pa sa strad bago ito mapakanta.[kailangan gumaling pa bago magamit ng tama] ito ba ay dahil hinde talaga maganda ang tunog ng strad, gumaganda lang siya sa kamay ng mahuhusay violinista? na hypnotize ang mga listener? sasabihin nilang Strad ito! ang tenga ko ang nagkamali ng pandinig[pero ang totoo pumalya lang ung violinist] ... Tapos sobrang mahal nito!

IMO not worth it, dahil ako ay enthusiast lang, at kung hinde ko mapapakanta ito dahil sa mababamg level ko, doon na lang ako sa affordable na mapapakanta ko.[PS hinde ko kaya bumili ng strad ^^; sample lang ito]


EDIT: oopsies sorry Cute Worm: hinde ko nakita ung post mo, hinde ako nagmamatigas ulo, kadugtong lang sana ito ng pinost ko para kay Sir. Doceric ^^;
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:42 am

@ Cute Worm: Thank you for understanding my concerns.

Kailangan ko lang mag ingat dahil mabilis ako mahulog sa "sales talk" kaya ina alam ko sa experience ng iba tungkol sa ganitong product, bago ako mismo pumunta para mag testing :D lalo na hinde biro ang presyo.

My POV sa durabiliy: hinde maalis ang mentality ko sa pagigiging "fragile" ang master instrument, for the fact na ung Kakilala ko na nag mamay ari ng hand crafted doble tapa Ramirez guitar na worth more than 10k USD. kalimutan natin ung mga factory made nila[gawa lang daw ng Alhambra] Hinde siya professional musician, Nurse siya sa states pero guitar enthusiast. Napaka sensitive nito, na hinde niya mailabas ng bahay dito sa pinas, kailangan sa loob lang ng bahay niya na naka centralize AC pag gagamitin. napansin ko sobrang nipis ung kahoy, dahil ito ay more on projection and tonal qualities. pero parang sinusuntok ka pag nakatapat ka dito sa guitara, nag vivibrate pati bituka mo ^^;

Pero, violin nga tayo ngayon, wala pa ako alam tungkol dito at hinde pa ako nakaka kita ng master violin... kaya sorry sa inyong lahat kung makulit ako ^^;

meron ba dito nag ma may ari ng Tamayo? makikipag meet up ako, or pupuntahan ko kayo para masubukan at makita lang.

Ina-add ko na sa facebook Si Mr. Tamayo. Si mang angel meron din kaya siya sa facebook?Sana bago matapos ang taon na eh maka pag pagawa or bumili kung may ready made na Philippine Violin! mukhang todo bigay ako nitong taon na naman sa trabaho he he he.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:12 am

amrita_sama wrote:
TalBlaiser wrote:
However, pinapakinggan ko ang instrumento sa kamay ng amateur, kaya ba e-compensate ng instrument ung pagkukulang ng player? doon ko bine base ang quality ng sounds ng instrument.

To an extent, yes. May pagkakaiba din talaga kung fine instrument ang ginamit. Nung nag-start ako mag-aral Parrot ang gamit ko, tapos nakatanggap ako ng isang Hofner, at may pagkakaiba talaga ang tunog.

However, malaki pa rin ang impluwensiya ng skill ng humawak ng instrumento.

I would really want to own a Tamayo violin. Or at least have my Hofner serviced. But I cannot afford it. =/

Ganyan din ang experience ko. from Cremona to hofner ko, walang revelation na nangyari dahil siguro parehong student violin. pero from Cremona&Hofner to Guangji Ang violin, sobrang laki ng pagitan, ung dinala sa akin itong Gaungji Ang, hinde ako inaway ng mga tao sa bahay, kaya nakapag practice na ako ng violin ng tuloy tuloy.

Iyun ang hinahanap ko sa instrumento, na pag hinawakan ng baguhan, mararamdaman nila ung pinagkaiba. or sana may magpakita sa akin kung ano ang pinagka iba ng student sa professional sa master violin,
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:22 am

Hi to all,

Very interesting comments, everyone, and what a lively discussion

About the comment to me regarding luthiers, I am aware na maraming luthiers, I mean, obvious naman, I'm sure there have been a lot of orchestras in the Philippines over the years, and I am sure that in each decade, there has been a go-to luthier to service the violins/stringed instruments around. What I was commenting on is the fact that nowadays, Amador Tamayo and Mang Angel are the only ones we are aware of... Oh, and Mang Tulio pala hehe... Its not like you can go to any of the stores just like that here, and ask for an inhouse luthier, or at the least, a capable repair person... They will all mention that you should take it to Tamayo...

Regarding the subject of durability:
A guitar is usually tougher than the owner thinks it is, but yes, there are varying degrees of durability, and the fact that it is made by a master luthier does not guaranty that this will be quite durable. In the end, I think it is how the present owner of the instrument will be using the instrument, and taking care of it as the years go on. I have a few old guitars, and some look like they are about to give up the ghost, but they are alive and well because I try to take the time to care for these instruments. Do your part, and the instrument should live long and prosper...

Now, as to sound quality:
This is tricky. In the same way that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the quality of the sound to a listener. This should not be confused with the volume and projection of an instrument, which are two very different things... What I have found through my experience with guitars: a great guitar will NOT compensate for the skill, or lack of skill, of the player. Case in point: put a cheap Lumanog in Eric Clapton's hands, and he will still sound like Eric Clapton. Put a crappy violin in Anne Sophie Mutter's hands, and if she will agree to play it (I'm sure she wouldn't hahaha), I'm sure she will be able to sound like Anne Sophie pa rin... I remember there was a video on YouTube of Mr. Coke Bolipata playing on a Bachendorff... Man, that Bachendorff sounded so sweet while he was playing it...

I guess, to a certain extent, a good luthier-made violin properly set up will make it easier to play, and it would probably be easier to get a very good sound, but put it in a beginner's hands, and it will sound the way that beginner plays, as opposed to a good player, who will make that violin sing... However, this is double edged: a good instrument could also amplify the mistakes of the player, and this could be perceived by some as the violin's fault, when in fact, the result is more because of the player's lack of skill...

Also: tone is subjective, and sometimes, a player will judge a violin based on the sound that he has in his head, or based on what he has heard so far, which may not be a lot... This makes it difficult to generalize... So regarding TalBlaiser's comment on the Strad: it depends on the person, I guess... How much value do you really put on tone? Are you the type who is willing and able to spend millions just to get the, what you perceive as, perfect tone? Then go for it, di ba?

Just my two cents, anyway (more like P100 hehe)

Cube
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:15 pm

First of all, I valued each and every comment. they will help me decide when purchasing instruments. I want to say that I really Appreciate it and want no quarrel with anyone[just in case]

@ cube.root.sam: Agreed sa sinabi mo. so ito ang aking side of the story:

Sa Durability: Talagang hinde natin puwede pahawak sa bata ito.

Sa Sound Quality: Magigiging off topic na tayo :D As an artist ilang beses ko na na discuss ung "Eye of the beholder" on my part, nasa trivial o maliit na percent lang ito, kasi hinde natin puwede e deny ang "standard" beauty. For instance: may dalawang violin na maganda, si A ay bright tone and si B ay Dark tone. nasa preferences na ng player kung sino ang pipiliin, pero sa umpisa pa lang pareho na mgaganda ung violin.

Alam natin na pag tunog torotot ang violin eh hinde ito ang standard beauty niya, kahit meron diyan na nagugustuhan ung tunog, de dumeretso na lang pala siya sa torotot di ba?

cube.root.sam wrote:

I guess, to a certain extent, a good luthier-made violin properly set up will make it easier to play.

Exactly! pero kung nasa player pala, bakit tayo gagastos ng sobrang laki, kung puwede na pala ang factory made? dahil lang ba sa prestige? malamang hinde, merong taglay sigurado ang mga master instrument na wala sa student or advance level, iyun ang gusto ko maintindihan at malaman kung ano? lalo na ngayon, nasa golden age na raw ang violin making worldwide.

Ung Philippine violin at it's prize level, may makukuha ba ako na mas higit sa ibang lahi? iyun ang aking tinitimbang. :D

PS: Batukan ninyo lang ako kung naghahanap ako ng imposible ^^;
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:19 pm

Karagdagan kay Cube: tungkol sa pag amplify ng mistakes. Yes iyun ang dahilan kung bakit sa amateur ko tinitingnan, ung mga pagkakamali nila rin ang isang factor kung anong klaseng instrument ang hawak nila, obviously masakit talaga ang violin sa tenga pag sumabit ang player, pero kakayanin ba ung sakit o hinde? at least alam na natin ung worst na magagawa nito.

hinde natin puwedeng sisihin ang instrument "A lazy worker blames his tools", but "The right tools make the job a lot more easier" easier for me bilang isang amateur enthusiast, iyan ang hinahanap ko sa violin.

Ito ay fantasy lang ba o meron talagang existing na violin na mag accommodate ng gusto ko? I believe meron ito, dahil dito sa Guanji Ang violin, naramdaman ko na kakayanin ko pala mag violin, kasi iniisip ko dati na "Distant Dreams" na ako ay matututo mag violin, naging reality iyun dahil kay Yvette... how much more iyung mas higit pa dito?
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:51 pm

@Tal

yes i think kayo nga ni Jeje yung nagkaron ng Impromptu lesson sa Guarneri F Hole vs. Stradivari F HOles... ^_^

Super limited lng ang kilala ko by name na mga luthiers hindi ko pa kilala si Joseph Curtin ....

By the way Tal, si Viotti nung 1780s nagpopularize ng Stradivari violins sa French court ... that was almost 50 years after the instruments were made... expect that in time maga-appreciate din ang prices ng Philippine made violins.... In time. ^_^

FYI, si Mang Amador ang alam ko Cellist din. ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:04 pm

@Tal

by the way, may tawag sila Tr. Liza dun eh ... like yung sabi mo ung taga Tate na Nurse na adik s guitar... apparently nasanay sa cold climate ng states yung guitar nya kaya kailangan pang naka centralized AC dito sa pinas para lang magamit....

yung mga violins na matagal na kasi dito sa pinas... sanay na sila sa warm-hot and humid climate natin althroughout the year (lowlands)

nung dinala ko ung violin ko netong December 22-23 sa Baguio, di ko gusto ung tunog. Di pansin nila Cute Worm, Dindo at Mharnie ung change syempre .... pero ako naiirita sa sound ng violin ko nun, di ako makatugtog ng maayos. That's like the reverse of the case of the guitar of your Friend nurse... sanay na kasi sa lowland climate ng pinas yung akin ... summer ko kasi sya nabili so naka-adjust na sa Climate natin.... ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm

TalBlaiser wrote:
A

cube.root.sam wrote:

I guess, to a certain extent, a good luthier-made violin properly set up will make it easier to play.


Exactly! "pero kung nasa player pala, bakit tayo gagastos ng sobrang laki, kung puwede na pala ang factory made?" dahil lang ba sa prestige? malamang hinde, merong taglay sigurado ang mga master instrument na wala sa student or advance level, iyun ang gusto ko maintindihan at malaman kung ano? lalo na ngayon, nasa golden age na raw ang violin making worldwide.

Ung Philippine violin at it's prize level, may makukuha ba ako na mas higit sa ibang lahi? iyun ang aking tinitimbang. :D

PS: Batukan ninyo lang ako kung naghahanap ako ng imposible ^^;


Let me take this one to a relative comparison..


It is like driving a LAMBORGHINI vs TOYOTA.. Consider the Lambo as the master level and the Toyota as the factory made violin.. When actually, this is running on two different arguments. I hope I can elaborate these two clearly.

1.) If we are talking about just getting to where you want to go, and have the luxury of private driving Then you would totally agree with me if I say "Why the heck would i spend millions for a Lamborghini for this purpose?".. Even the Cheap Toyota can accomplish this task. Talking about speed, The Toyota can provide speeds more than the speed limit allowed on the super highway. In this case, nasa kotse ang focus. Anyone who knows how to drive a Toyota sedan can get it anywhere they want.


2.) Now If we talk about Racing, are we going to debate about what car to use to achieve the "DESIRED PERFORMANCE" of the driver?
Obviously the Lambo has a much better Suspension system, a MAMAW engine, Brake system and almost perfect handling compared to the sedan.. Unanimously, the Lambo has a higher CAPABILITY in a race.

Now Lets talk about the driver. You can put a driver inside a Lamborghini and for sure he will Notice the difference on the LEVEL of difference between the two cars in terms of build, performance and handling.. On the other side, his lack of training in handling the Lambo can also give him the accident if not handled properly.

If You put a RACER inside a Toyota, he can drive it on normal situation but he cannot Maximize the Toyota for a racing due to the car's Limited Capacity.
But put a racer inside a Lambo, Then expect it to be exhilarating and full of adrenaline..


Conclusion:
Amateur driver + Toyota = Ok lang.
Amateur driver + Lamboghini = improved driving due to the car (pero pwede rin maging cause ng disgrasya if not handled properly)

Professional Racer + Toyota = better performance (due to driver's ability) but not maximized due to limited car performance.
Professional Racer + Lamborghini = Best performance due to driver's ability + Car's Capability..

So kung ikukumpara natin ito sa "Violin Instrument and player" perspective, I think that this is clear enough..
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:12 pm

nice analogy cute worm.....i love it....hehehe...:)
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:05 pm

ayun ... ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:35 pm

Sana may competition for instrument-making (bowed instruments, bows, guitars, etc...) sa Pilipinas, tulad sa ibang bansa. A lot of European countries have them. SO does Japan and China. A healthy dose of competition would be good. It would also be a good opportunity to advertise the luthiers'/makers' products, networking, info-sharing. Ang daming potentials.

Sa Pillipinas, dahil popular ang guitars, meron bang national competition for guitar making?
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:04 am

Wow! Anggaling Kuya Jeje ahaha! Loveeee! it!
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:28 am

Cute Worm wrote:

Now Lets talk about the driver. You can put a driver inside a Lamborghini and for sure he will Notice the difference on the LEVEL of difference between the two cars in terms of build, performance and handling.. On the other side, his lack of training in handling the Lambo can also give him the accident if not handled properly.

If You put a RACER inside a Toyota, he can drive it on normal situation but he cannot Maximize the Toyota for a racing due to the car's Limited Capacity.
But put a racer inside a Lambo, Then expect it to be exhilarating and full of adrenaline..


Conclusion:
Amateur driver + Toyota = Ok lang.
Amateur driver + Lamboghini = improved driving due to the car (pero pwede rin maging cause ng disgrasya if not handled properly)

Professional Racer + Toyota = better performance (due to driver's ability) but not maximized due to limited car performance.
Professional Racer + Lamborghini = Best performance due to driver's ability + Car's Capability..

So kung ikukumpara natin ito sa "Violin Instrument and player" perspective, I think that this is clear enough..

The BEST! *bow*

Ang kulang na lang ngayon ay ung ma experience ko, Hay! kelan kaya?

Na contact ko na si Mr. Tamayo kahapon, pero hinde pa rin nag re reply? wala kaya silang tiwala sa Facebook?

Kagaya nga ng sabi ni baroqueviolin, sa ngayon siguro takot pa ang mga ibang lahi sa Tamayo, pero pag na introduce nga naman sa kanila ng maayos baka nga biglang tangkilikin si Tamayo he he he. pero mukhang kakailanganin natin ng Pinoy Virtuoso na may star quality ^^;

@ baroqueviolin: anong tawag doon? mukhang na experience ko rin iyun nitong December, nagbago ung tunog ng violin ko rin... parang na mute ang tunog at hinde nag vi-vibrate ung mga kahoy, malamang sanay din si Yvette sa ma init na climate ^^;
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:34 pm

TalBlaiser wrote:
[...] Kagaya nga ng sabi ni baroqueviolin, sa ngayon siguro takot pa ang mga ibang lahi sa Tamayo [...]

@Tal

errrr wala ata ako sinabi na ''takot ibang lahi sa Tamayo".... o_O


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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:05 pm

I wonder if Pinoy luthiers join international violin-making competitions? I assume it would give them a very good baseline of what they have to compete with in an international setting. Also, these would serve as an expert and impartial evaluation of their capabilities as instrument makers.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:06 pm

Sir Amador's Violins sell up to $7000 in germany and australia so if you compare the local price of $1500 it is really a bargain. also, you will not find amador or mang angel violin owners here because most of them are not PV members. aside from owning a european violin, around 60% of professional violinists in the philippines own an amador violin with more of them still waiting in line for their turn to own one.
Of course you will hear some bad comments on their violins but that is only because those dissatisfied are noisier and more vocal in spreading their comments as compared to the majority of amador violin owners who are satisfied and are busy playing instead of postings good comments.
The comparison is this, an 80,000 peso violin by sir amador is generally better than an 80,000 european violin. Why? European labor cost is so much more expensive than asian labor. a friend of mine(concertmaster) tried an $800 student bow in hamburg. He said a $35 chinese bow was better. Amador's violins and cellos can reach up to $7000 in germany and australia. These are the two countries I know that are currently buying amador instruments. some comments i see in the internet are pointless. Why compare a $1500 violin to a $30000 italian violin? I must say though that a $15k violin will sell at $30k just for the sake of being made by an italian regardless of the quality of the violin.

He said to me last month. 'habang ikaw nag-iimport ng violins ako naman nag-eexport'. I guess foreigners are more interested in his violins than Filipinos which mostly have a colonial mentality.

(edit) I own a 2002 viola by sir amador. I'm also buying an amador violin. Haba ng pila, I asked him last month and he said their are 16 violins in queu before He can start making mine when I make a downpayment. I believe sir amador can make violins at par with expensive european ones if he uses the same expensive tonewood. but, how many filipinos can afford to buy one? The wood alone will cost more than 100K pesos and most luthiers are not willing to sell their most prized tonewoods.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:24 pm

Thanks Sir Rommel

It is really hard to comment on this kind of topic because we don't know much about our Luthier.

Nakaka-satisfy na malaman ang side ng luthier from a trusted person like you.. For enthusiasts like us, we can only wish to know these things first hand from Mang Amador.

I would really like to have a Tamayo Violin kahit entry level lang kapag kaya ko na ang presyo..
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:20 pm

Slightly OT but if you want to hear some of Sir Amador's violins I encourage those interested to watch Filharmonika's Concert on January 18, 2011 at Philam Life Auditorium. http://www.facebook.com/pages/FILharmoniKA/295483796528#!/event.php?eid=136367983090338

In the viola section there are two Amador Tamayo violas, one is mine and the other is used by our principal violist. there is also one viola by mang angel.
Our concertmaster uses an Amador Tamayo violin plus 7 violins more in the violin section. Who knows, you might actually see Sir Amador there because he usually attends concerts.
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PostSubject: Re: Strenght of Philippine luthiers violin[Serious Topic]   Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:27 am

Nagwoworry pa man din ako na baka wala ng mga usapin dito dahil sa Facebook group. Tapos heto bigla ang tumambad sa akin. Very informative. Thanks for all the inputs!

At wala na akong sasabihin pa, nasabi na lahat. :)
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